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To hear supporters of the T-SPLOST speak, if the T-SPLOST does not pass, not only will the Atlanta area no longer be attractive to companies looking to relocate, we'll actually start running companies off that are already located here. How preposterous!
For decades now, the Atlanta REGION has been a destination for companies to locate facilities here. Several have even relocated their corporate headquarters here. Many of those, though, have located regional offices here, primarily in Atlanta's suburbs. Over all those years, there has NEVER been rail transit EXCEPT in Fulton and Dekalb counties. Yet, companies STILL seek to move here.
So, many of the supporters of the T-SPLOST claim the referendum will reduce congestion. Then, the Georgia DOT lets it slip that passage of the measure would not appreciably reduce our "congestion problem." In fact, it appears the REAL purpose of the T-SPLOST is for economic development. Supporters point to the fact that everywhere there's a MARTA rail station, office and retail development soon follows.
I don't know about you, but I'm not really interested in having Cobb Countians pay almost a billion dollars in taxes to spur real estate development inside the Perimeter.
I'm predicting a devastating loss for the T-SPLOST. So, here's an idea that could offer a more widely used rail system AND create development opportunities virtually statewide. What IF we had light rail or monorail that ran from Chattanooga through Macon to Savannah and from Columbus through Macon to Augusta? What IF we allowed it to be funded completely through private investment? What IF MARTA were merely part of that system instead of the center of the hub? And, what IF passengers actually paid the REAL cost of their ride on the system?
I believe such a system COULD be done privately on existing interstate right-of-way by private companies without a single dime of taxpayer money. In fact, I believe it could be completely FINISHED by the time MARTA could finish the short line from Cumberland Mall to Midtown Atlanta. Incentives could be offered to the first contractor to finish their particular section of the project, say a billion dollars.
Imagine the jobs created all across the state building this transportation system. Imagine the development that would follow. Imagine how attractive Georgia would be by having private companies building such an extensive transportation network. Imagine Atlanta, its suburbs and outlying areas cooperating while enhancing their own areas.
I believe such a system holds much more promise than a centrally controlled effort like the T-SPLOST. We have far to many opportunities AROUND Atlanta to be bound to one big project. Let's put our minds and resources to work creating opportunities for ALL Georgians.
Read more about TSPLOST on the Smyrna-Vinings Patch TSPLOST topic page.
lowbar
1:20 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
I can get behind this idea better than the one currently being voted on. Atlanta / Terminus has a lot of existing rail line that could be used for commuter rail service. Image a commuter line that runs from Acworth to Kennesaw to Marietta to Smyrna to Atlanta. It's not a new idea folks, but it works.
Pam J
2:06 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
I keep saying that the only thing that will relieve congestion is a rail system that goes in all directions, and deep into the suburbs in each direction. Having the rail service just come up to Cumberland is ridiculous. A lot of people moved to that area because it was an easier commute to Atlanta. And if you are driving from Marietta or Kennesaw to get to the rail station, you are still going to be in your car for a very long time. The traffic going downtown is not usually very bad once you get past the I-285 interchange. Just about everything they are proposing for the TSPLOST is not going to help much. Yes, it may create more jobs, but that's about it.
Brian
3:52 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
If you read the final report, it is going to continue to Town Center. It will likely be phased, where phase 1 goes to Cumberland, and Phase 2 goes to Town Center. So yes, the first few years of taxes will be for Cumberland however the later years will be for Town Center. There's both projects on the report, not just the Cumberland project. That means both would be built.
Additionally, if you still use a car in the meantime, then on your return trip from downtown, the bottleneck at Windy Hill will be relieved. More cars can use roads to bypass I-75 (e.g. the planned Terrell Mill Road Connector) in that area so people heading up to North Cobb will get some relief.
However, note that most of traffic doesn't come from people commuting into Atlanta. Most traffic is inter-city (Buckhead, Dunwoody, Alpharetta, etc) and a bigger transit system is needed just for that. Dedicated line, versus busses, is the only thing that will expand the talent pool for businesses locating here. The alternative is the talent pool shrinking as it becomes more and more local due to traffic. That's unacceptable for businesses.
Brian
3:29 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Your point: "I don't know about you, but I'm not really interested in having Cobb Countians pay almost a billion dollars in taxes to spur real estate development inside the Perimeter."
From http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com/documents/final_report.pdf :
* Busbee Frey Connector from Busbeee Parkway to Frey
Road ‐ New Alignment - $19 Million
* US 41 (Cobb Parkway) from Barrett Parkway to Bartow
County ‐ Intersection Improvements at Nine Locations - $9.8 Million
* I‐75 North at Windy Hill Road ‐ Interchange Improvements - $57 Million
* SR 360 (Macland Road) from Paulding County Line to New
Macland Road / Lost Mountain Road ‐ Widening - $14.5 Million
* McCollum Airport ‐ New Air Traffic Control Tower - $2.5 Million
* McCollum Airport ‐ Runway Approach Lighting System - $0.69 Million
* Moon Station Road at CSX Railroad ‐ New Alignment and
Overpass - $4.5 Million
* River View Road from Nichols Drive to SR 280 (South Cobb
Drive) ‐ Corridor Improvements - $12.5 Million
* SR 120 (Roswell Road) from Bridgegate Drive to Timber
Ridge Road ‐ Safety and Operational Improvements - $20 Million
Brian
3:30 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
* SR 280 (South Cobb Drive) from I‐285 to Church Road /
Oakdale Road ‐ Corridor Improvements - $9 Million
* Enhanced Premium Transit Service ‐ Acworth / Kennesaw Northwest Cobb/Atlant/ Town Center to MARTA Arts Center Station - $689 Million
* Windy Hill Road / Terrell Mill Connector ‐ New Alignment $14 Million
* US 41 (Cobb Parkway) at Windy Hill Road ‐ Grade
Separation - $89.5 Million
* SR 92 (Lake Acworth Drive) from US 41 (Cobb Parkway) to
Cherokee Street ‐ Widening - $29.1 Million
* Windy Hill Road from SR 280 (South Cobb Drive) to US 41
(Cobb Parkway) ‐ Widening and Operational
Improvements - $22.9 Million
Plus, there are $95 Million in federal earmarks that will be abandoned if these projects don't go forward. Additionally, some of these projects will go through anyway, in much longer time-frames, at the expense of other projects. Other projects won't. We have a $66 billion backlog and these were deemed the highest priority of projects for Cobb County by Cobb County officials (sadly, sometimes the same ones opposing T-Splost for political gains)
Cobb County is no longer a suburban county. It is urban in character. If we want Cobb County to grow in a comfortable way, we need to invest in the infrastructure and build the kind of infrastructure that encourages denser development in some corridors so we can maintain the character of other areas.
Brian
3:31 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Quote: "I'm predicting a devastating loss for the T-SPLOST. So, here's an idea that could offer a more widely used rail system AND create development opportunities virtually statewide. What IF we had light rail or monorail that ran from Chattanooga through Macon to Savannah and from Columbus through Macon to Augusta? What IF we allowed it to be funded completely through private investment? What IF MARTA were merely part of that system instead of the center of the hub? And, what IF passengers actually paid the REAL cost of their ride on the system?"
Response: Light rail is meant for short hauls and carries only a small number of passengers. Monorail is by nature light rail. Both are inappropriate for the cooridor you speak of. Heavy rail is meant for long-hauls and has larger (heavier) trains. That's the difference. Maglev is an emerging option being considered as well. However, it suffers from not having existing track to build upon / straighten and suffers from lack fo right-of-ways.
Different portions of the Savannah to Macon, to Chattanooga and onward corridor has already been studied and/or is in the process of being studied or being considered for study. This corridor is part of President Obama's high speed rail priority corridors, generally for high speed conversion of existing rail. It has also been looked at from time to time when considering the Atlanta to Chattanooga high speed options to expand Hartsfield traffic to Chattanooga's under-utilized field...
Brian
3:32 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
And also there have been considerations for mag-lev to Savannah ports and inland ports initiatives PURELY FOR FREIGHT (though it has been acknowledged be also utilized for non-freight in the future with adequate control systems and bypasses for passenger trains, albeit challenging).
Additionally, there has also been talk of double-tracking portions of the CSX rail line and using it for commuter rail. Commuter rail is really more appropriate for residential use. Realistically, long-term, we need an I-75 Cobb Parkway alignment to service commercial population growth along this cooridor, AND a commuter rail through Vinings, Smyrna, Marietta, Kennessaw, Acworth and Canton to service residential populations. So one does not exclude the other. Both will probably be built eventually, however painfully, if other forms of revenue need to be found... Can you say more HOT lanes and higher gas tax?
The reality is that people have talked and talked and talked for over twenty years and not put their money where their mouth is. People talk how they want improvements, but are unwilling to spend. People unemployed and out of work who can't ride transit to work, and progressives are frustrated. If our economy is so great on the back of cars alone, why is unemployment so high in metro Atlanta?
Let Detroit be a lesson of what happens if roads go too far. It is probably the best road system in the country, bastion of cars, apex of sprawl, and now look at it: Mostly abandoned.
Brian
3:33 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Quote: "I believe such a system COULD be done privately on existing interstate right-of-way by private companies without a single dime of taxpayer money. In fact, I believe it could be completely FINISHED by the time MARTA could finish the short line from Cumberland Mall to Midtown Atlanta."
That's unrealistic. First of all, private corporations tend to bleed dollars to pay for high-paid execs. They can't be trusted any more than seasoned "good 'ol boy" politicians can. Plus, they also have the unsavory responsibility to make their shareholders money, versus thinking of the welfare of people. Ethical public servants do a little better (yes, not all are ethical)
Additionally, corporations will request the government to help fund the rail's operations because until an area grows into development patterns that support high use of the rail line, it won't make enough from fares alone. Not for a while. Places don't densify from a sleepy village (http://album.atlantahistorycenter.com/store/Products/83537-buckhead.aspx) to what we currently know as Buckhead overnight. Perhaps in areas like Buckhead and midtown, something like MARTA can stand on its own. However, in growing areas that just isn't realistic.
Inside-Out
5:56 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Great article Tim. The sad part is, if this was a plan that would actually provide some answers and solutions then the taxpayers would support it, just as it has in the past. The citizens of Cobb and Metro Atlanta have finally figured the system out and are not so eager to hand out money. When the first T-Splost came to Cobb it was passed. Then all we got mostly was intersection improvements and every one of those intersections got new sidewalks that connected to nothing. A complete waste of money that was supposed to be about improving traffic. I shook my head every time I went through any of those improvements. Windy Mac came through later. Of course this was a patch work roadway. Now this roadway dumps into the non improved Windy Hill road, that could not handle the traffic that it already had. The county knew all along that they were going to need millions more. Now they are asking to improve Windy Hill road to Cobb Pkwy. If passed then this would only jam traffic up at this intersection. Then they will be back in 10 years asking for more to improve Windy Hill from Cobb Pkwy to I-75. Come up with a real plan and some real improvements that we can get behind and I would be the first to support it. For a true rail system I would even vote for a 5 cent tax. Time to quit playing games. No more million dollars plans. We have spent enough on planning.
Brian
6:42 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Quote: "If passed then this would only jam traffic up at this intersection."
That's incorrect, because the project includes grade-separation at Cobb Pkwy and re-alignment of Circle 75, improvement of the I-75 interchange, grade separation at Interstate North and re-alignment plus extension of Interstate North to Terrell Mill Rd (basically, reconnecting what was cut off by the highway a long time ago).
I posted a link to the T-Splost project list on another comment. It's amazing how much people aren't properly informing themselves.
Quote: "Time to quit playing games. No more million dollars plans. We have spent enough on planning."
Where were all of you the last five years? I was actively engaged. You should have gotten involved sooner if you wanted to make a difference.
GaPatriot
7:55 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Currently, without spending a dime, there are 3 different roads that motorists can travel from Windy Hill to Terrill Mill. An extra road will not help - how many people actually want to go from Windy Hill to Terrill Mill? This is just an example of cronyism to pay back the owner of the property by that barely profitable motel.
Hook up with MARTA? And pay for our children's and grandchildren's lifetimes for the most mismanaged rail system since Amtrack? We will be paying an additional 1% on our groceries, over the counter medications, gasoline, energy, and everything else we need or want. Most of our residents don't even go to Atlanta, and if they did they certainly would not want to take the train.
When I was working, I traveled to downtown every day from East Cobb, within 25 minutes. I left at 6 am, because we staggered our hours. Now that I'm on a fixed income, the additional tax will really hurt for everything I need and the few things I may want.
Jobs? Won't be mine, my husband's or my friends. They will go to illegal aliens who will then have money to buy trucks and beer, a favorite habit of those who steal into our country and are rewarded with taxpayers subsidizing their pay. And we all know what happens when illegals mix drinking and driving.
Forget TSPOST, it is flawed and wasteful. I don't care about the beltline, walking trails or trolley. I earned my money and am tired of lying politicians wasting it.
Brian
9:34 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
GAPatriot: your question is irrelevant because this is not a connection from Windy Hill to Terrell Mill but instead a grade seperation of interstate North and Windy HIll and continuation through to Terrell Mill. I know some co-workers in Marietta and East Cobb who would benefit from it, not to mention N. Cobb motorists who would benefit from more of them coming off the road. Many people currently get off at the Cumberland Blvd exit and go right to get to Marietta when I-75 is backed up. However, they hit bottlenecks near Windy HIll. This would clear up those bottlenecks and they could slide right past Windy Hill and slip into Marietta. and East Cobb.
" I left at 6 am, because we staggered our hours. "
No thanks. I'd pay the 1% tax :-) I actually do a late commute from Smyrna and when I can't because I have to be at the office "early", I pull my hair out. Having to commute before rush hour makes me even more angry.
"Jobs? Won't be mine, my husband's or my friends. "
Wow, you come from a different era of Atlanta don't you? You really think that the 9.1% of unemployed in metro Atlanta are illegal aliens? I don't think so.
Brian
9:43 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Your argument that you don't go into Atlanta is also irrelevant as well. Would Cumberland and Town Center economic development not be beneficial to the county? Do you own a home and don't realize businesses are offsetting your taxes and lowering your mill rate? I can tell you what happens in a large town of nothing but fancy homes and roads with little business. I grew up in one in suburban New England that was like East Cobb but more affluent. Try $15,000 a year taxes on a $500,000 home. You should be encouraging the rail to spur economic development. However, I imagine you didn't think about the fact businesses lower your property taxes.
Not to mention, you are ignoring all the road projects in the county.
And about MARTA... For all the complaints people made about MARTA, it was part of the engine of growth for ATLANTA. It hasn't been given much money and has managed to stay afloat, albiet barely. Often at the expense of the aesthetic of the stations. Nevertheless, MARTA has managed to spend money on some upgrades to better and more efficient control systems, improvements that cut down on maintenance costs, upgrades to its fleet, and conversion to smart "Breeze" cards for passengers. It is really very efficient. Therefore, fiscal conservatives should be impressed on what MARTA has done with so little.
I, for one, wish they had a little extra money to spend on making their stations more attractive. How is that bad management that they spend money on the essentials?
GaPatriot
7:38 am on Monday, July 30, 2012
Brian,
Your arguments are irrelevant, for the same reason you said mine are: Because I Say So.
There are far too many people who work in other directions than from Cumberland to Atlanta who will not benefit from any of these "improvements". The Windy Hill/Terrill Mill connection is nothing but a payoff to a struggling business owner who is probably a large contributor to the Untie Atlanta campaign. It is a waste of money.
For those of us who are retired, we cannot afford this new tax and there are many of us in this position - far more than travel to Atlanta. As I said - I traveled to Atlanta daily at 6 am and never had a problem. The commute is yours to solve.
I moved to Cobb County from NJ because of the taxes. We can move to TN or FL for the same reason now - no income taxes, low property taxes, lower sales taxes. If seniors start moving out the young people moving in who require much more services, police, schools, etc., will bury GA taxpayers.
Cobb County did not approve the IMAGE program but put it on hold - so audits are not being done. Illegals were found multiple times working on schools and public buildings in Cobb by investigative reporters and nothing has been done to correct the subcontractor - sub/subcontractor problems. Go to Sams - the illegals are buying their beer by cases. Where are they getting the $$ and how did they get all their beer home?
You can pay the 1% tax - send a check to the State. Put your $$ where your mouth is.
John
6:53 am on Monday, July 30, 2012
Brian,
So glad to Hear you were actively engaged the last 5 years. Well the majority of us are Going to be actively engaged Tuesday,by voting NO- actuall not just no
but Hell no! Your arrogance and tone is representive of the typical Supporter of this flawed Tax. When you get off your high horse, find out what the little people truly want. How? By asking, not just telling. Tuesday will tell the tale! Sorry the last five years were a waste of your time! But we are tired of having the cake jammed down our collective throats! We will eat the cake when we want, not when you and the Queen's court tell us to.
GaPatriot
8:37 am on Monday, July 30, 2012
Brian,
Aren't you the kid that went to a Smyrna council meeting and stated "school rankings really don't matter, our schools in Smyrna are really GOOD, no matter what the rankings say"?
And you're trying to make a legitimate argument about T-SPLOST - I think you're in over your head, young man!
BTW, I live in the Walton High district and school rankings really do matter. Our home prices have remained stable because the area is desirable for home buyers because of the schools. You are far too rash and foolish to make comprehensive comments. I lived in a Smyrna apartment for 6 months when I first moved here, and then bought a house in East Cobb because of the school, since my son was tested and placed in the Target program. He is now a Vice President of a large PR firm and supporting a family of 4 children.
And, my comments are not irrelevant because you think so. You are not the only deciding entity.
I have already voted NO for the T-SPLOST, and I predict it will be defeated soundly.
Brian
1:10 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012
To be honest, people are usually very happy with Smyrna elementary schools, and the high school (Campbell ranked ~600 nationally). It's the middle schools that need work, but they are improving and I think the rising wealth level has something to do with it. There's still a good amount of time before my daughter starts middle school.
King Springs beat Teasely (Vinings) in test scores this year. Teasely still did great. Kings Springs also beat many East Cobb schools. Russell, Brown (R.I.P.), Nickajack all did well. You can also put it in perspective: Smyrna has a lot more affluent residents than it used to, but still has some poverty because it isn't suburban like East Cobb. It's a city. Cross-reference Snyrna test scores against how many get subsidized lunches and you get the whole picture. Aside from Marietta city limits, a Cobb education is pretty much a Cobb education. The main variable is the number of students in poverty and parental involvement. Often the two go hand-in-hand, but not always.
Affluence can also explain the transformation of Nickajack. I moved into one of the newer neighborhoods in the Nickajack district in 2007. Nowadays, more Nickajack has upper to middle class students than underprivileged.
It's not perfect in East Cobb. Beyond C.Plantation, schools are becoming overcrowded and test scores are dropping. Whereas Smyrna is on the rise. I prefer an improving area.
Tim T.
10:47 am on Monday, July 30, 2012
I'm voting no strictly because a sales tax is a regressive tax and disproportionately impacts low income residents, i.e. seniors and the underemployed. These are the people who need rail systems the most, but will not see a connection to MARTA for many years to come, if at all. If the whole project was aimed at solely connecting the suburbs to MARTA via rail, I'd be all for it, but this project list is just a grab for federal subsidies and a wink and a nod to each locality's politicians for their respective little drop in the bucket projects that will take longer and cost more than projected.
And the last thing I have to mention is the fact that if this tax is passed, it will never ever go away. You can be absolutely certain that Cobb County and the rest of the Metro area will carry this extra 1% for the rest of time.
Brian
1:11 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012
Whether or not it goes away is up to the next referendum. If it doesn't do what it's supposed to, people will vote against.
Bryan Farley
12:44 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012
I completely agree with Brian! Some of you folks here are so uninformed and stuck in your own mindsets that you will never see what progress can be. MARTA is extremely efficient. I would love for some of the people here to be forced to only use 50% of your earnings toward what you need and see how efficient your household will be. As far as the rail to Cumberland we shouldn't be having this discussion. That line should already be there! Because voters were so scared of the "element" coming to them on trains they voted no. Now 40 years later we are trying to get a line built. And not everyone will come from Cumberland to downtown but there are concepts to build a Cumberland to Doraville line as well and phase to with an extention from Cumberland to Towne Ctr. Everyone complains the trains go no where but when an expansion is put on the plate everyone complains and says no. It's funny though, Cobb won't support MARTA rail and bus service but you'll pay taxes for CCT to connect to MARTA with express buses and very limited local service. Oh and didn't CCT cut multiple routes like MARTA did and CCT gets state funding and doesn't have restrictions like MARTA does. So which system is truly mis-managed?
Bryan Farley
12:53 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012
Also why does everyone think private investment can provide better service. They are in it for a profit so why would they manage a system that will probably never make a profit. TRANSIT DOES NOT MAKE A PROFIT!! ROADS DON'T MAKE A PROFIT!! Then there is the argument "let the riders pay for it." Well how about you pay for paving your own streets and see if you could afford it. That's what taxes are for. So many older people aren't for it because they live in their nice suburbs and don't care about what happens in ATL. The truth is if Atlanta fails the entire region (heck the entire state) fails!
This is a project list that helps the entire region and was approved by leaders across the entire region. You hear "...when you come up with something better I will vote for it." What is better than having projects for the entire region and the money is being split almost 50/50 for roads and transit? No one will come up with a better plan and if this fails you don't have to worry about paying more taxes. You pay it in more HOT lanes that will be forced on to you. Leaders have already made it clear that if this doesn't pass more toll lanes are coming.
Bryan Farley
1:00 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012
Even as a supporter I do feel this SPLOST will be defeated. Too many old people who don't care about the future, too many groups and organizations that are upset because one or two projects didn't make the list, and too many uninformed citizens that are going off of what they hear. When we show we won't even support our own projects with local money, why are the feds going to give us additional money for roads and transit? All the projects that need more money or could be covered by the feds and state aren't going to happen at all. So to all the no voters if this doesn't pass I say HOOOOORAY!!!! Hooray on doing absolutely nothing and keeping us at the same stage we are on now. Hooray for letting our competitors advance. Hooray for job loses. Hooray for ten years down the line we are in the same situation!! HOORAY TO FAILURE!!
For all those for progress please vote YES!
Bruce
7:24 pm on Wednesday, August 1, 2012
This is Wednesday after the TSPLOST vote.
TSPLOST went down in flames.
Brian, let some air into your brain.